Авторизация / Регистрация

[Брэго]

Как я понял он как бы нерфит все спеки, что бы вы купил аддон, правильно? Ну во всяком случаи по первому впечатлению, некр убит.

[A6opureH]

у некра там нерф всего 1 трейта, где 50% декей ЛФ в шрауде разменяли на баф +1800 хп (и +1400 ЛФ). Некр теряет 4% от пула в секунду (раньше с трейтом было 2%). Теперь некр может в 2 раза меньше времени сидеть в шрауде, если его не бьют, но может чуть больше бурста впитать.
Остальные изменения - это реворки, которые скорее бафают, чем что-то нерфят: реген хп и ЛФ каждую секунду с ГСом в руках, чистка конди+ доп. хил при использовании хилки, рабочие пассивки сигнетов в шрауде (один сигнет хилящий, что дает по 500 хп в шрауде за удар с КД в секунду - это неплохой буст)

[Брэго]

Сообщение от A6opureH:

у некра там нерф всего 1 трейта, где 50% декей ЛФ в шрауде разменяли на баф +1800 хп (и +1400 ЛФ). Некр теряет 4% от пула в секунду (раньше с трейтом было 2%). Теперь некр может в 2 раза меньше времени сидеть в шрауде, если его не бьют, но может чуть больше бурста впитать.
Остальные изменения - это реворки, которые скорее бафают, чем что-то нерфят: реген хп и ЛФ каждую секунду с ГСом в руках, чистка конди+ доп. хил при использовании хилки, рабочие пассивки сигнетов в шрауде (один сигнет хилящий, что дает по 500 хп в шрауде за удар с КД в секунду - это неплохой буст)

я не хрена не понял, ты предлагаешь убрать 50% крита ради трейта с свордом?

[A6opureH]

Сообщение от Брэго:

я не хрена не понял

я это понял с самого начала, раз ты создал эту тему

[Брэго]

Сообщение от A6opureH:

я это понял с самого начала, раз ты создал эту тему

ну как бы 99 процентов игроков кроме воров в целом говорят что ужасны не довольны патчем помимо меня и я аргументы не вижу, аргумент то что некрам дебафнули шрауд в два раза не аргумент что это баф

[A6opureH]

99 процентов игроков на форумах всегда недовольны патчем. Т.к. те, кто доволен, играют, а не пишут посты на форумах

[Брэго]

Сообщение от A6opureH:

99 процентов игроков на форумах всегда недовольны патчем. Т.к. те, кто доволен, играют, а не пишут посты на форумах

я думаю просто есть утырки, которые ноют и есть утырки которым все ок а когда 100 игроков стримеров по классу включая теори крафтеров создают 10 тем включая реддит и они в топе значит прав скорее я впринципе не было не дня что бы я был не прав, были лишь тупые утырки которые хотели тралить, а то что некров кикали с раелиза хота в рейдах и ректалах нормальные игроки лишь за иконку некра это факт а сейчас ситуация хуже и уже все математики просчитали что Скоурдж буде ЛОУЛОУЛОУ по сравнению даже с тем что есть сейчас среди дпс и класс 2 аддона подряд будет по сути мусором.

Hey there everybody. I'm a long-time necromancer main. I've been very unhappy with the direction of the class over the past five years, but by and large I've kept my mouth shut other than to complain to friends.This most recent patch, however, finally broke me, and I figure that if I want to continue complaining I should at least do what I can to try and get it fixed. Since I'm essentially a nobody, that amounts to me writing a very long essay and hoping that a dev reads it. And as long as I can't log in, this is something to pass the time.While this is largely directed at developers in terms of my aspirations (a perfect outcome for me would be a balance dev coming out of the woodwork and discussing their mentality and addressing my concerns, even if only as a token recognition of the problems), I'd love to actually turn this into a conversation with the community at large too. I'm sure some amount of what I say will be deeply misguided.
I should note what I want this to be. This ideally will be a place for constructive discussion. I will not be calling for jobs, heads on pikes, or anything like that, nor will I be saying that the class is fundamentally hopeless. I will also be avoiding calling people dumb. All I ask is that people in this thread do the same. Insulting people who disagree with you is not an effective way to get problems recognized and fixed.
Also, some disclaimers. I am a necro main who has been playing the game since launch. However, I am an extremely casual player. I've never set foot in a raid and spend most of my time derping in the open world. Given that high-level content isn't really my jam, there are only two real reasons for me to care about balance issues. First, I dislike comparing myself disfavorably to other characters whenever I do things. Second, and more importantly, I care about this game and its well-being, and poor balance reflects negatively on the game in the eyes of potential and new players, and makes the existing player-base more jaded and bitter. None of this is healthy, and I'd like to see it corrected. Furthermore, all of this is predicated on the claim that Deathly Chill is receiving a significant nerf so as to make Reaper a power-focused spec. As such, my concern here is Power-Reaper and baseline Necromancer. I for one would like to continue playing as a Reaper after PoF drops
There are three major problems with the treatment of the necromancer, as far as I can tell, that have got us to where we are today: A misunderstanding of the necromancer's strengths, a general failure to fully examine the class in the context of both gameplay and other classes, and finally a difference in the general philosophy of the balance devs working on necromancer as opposed to most other classes. For the most part these do not come neatly apart topic-by-topic, but it is a good set of things to keep in mind.
1: How Much Damage does the Necromancer Actually Do?
I will preface this by noting once again that this entire discussion is predicated on Deathly Chill being nerfed into the ground to make way for a new Necromancer Condi Spec. Given this, I will be mainly examining the damage output of Power Reaper. Now, the most recent benchmarks I could find with corroborating evidence that actually list Power Reaper set the build's DPS with realistic buffs at 23,385. We should all agree that this is low, but there is a question of how low it is. Once that is figured out, we can be more equipped to arrive at workable balance changes. So some context. Examining qT's benchmarks prior to today's patch:

• As it stands, Power Reaper is not listed on these benchmarks, due to its DPS being lower than that of all meta DPS specs of all other classes, including for example Jalis Revenant, Hammer Guardian, and of all things Condi Mesmer. It is 0.5% higher than Power Phalanx Strength Berserker. The only meta builds with lower DPS are Power PS Zerker and pure support Chronomancer.
• If you were to increase the damage of all necromancer skills by 50%, Power Reaper DPS against large hitboxes would be less than all meta Tempest builds and comparable to Dragonhunter. Against small hitboxes, Power Reaper would be only the third highest DPS, following Condi Daredevil and Condi Engineer. So an across-the-board 50% damage buff to all necromancer skills would not make power reaper the highest DPS class in any context
• If you were to increase the damage of all necromancer skills by 33%, Power Reaper DPS would be lower than all of the following classes: Condi Daredevil, Power Daredevil, Condi Engineer, Condi Tempest, Condi Ranger, and Condi Berserker. DPS would also be in-line with Power Engineer.
• If you were to increase the damage of all necromancer skills by 25%, Power Reaper DPS would be under 30k, less than all of the above in addition to: All meta Tempest builds, Condi Revenant, Power Engineer, D/D Thief, and Sc/T/GS Dragonhunter, narrowly edging out Condi PS Zerker.

Just to let that sink in: The devs could do nothing but buff each and every necromancer ability to deal 25% more damage, and Power Reaper would still be lower DPS than almost every meta build in the game, and lower than every meta DPS build.
Two final points: First, today saw some significant nerfs to Tempest DPS. Personally I think they were somewhat heavy-handed. However, to all the people who play that class and have been affected by the nerfs, I would like to offer a point of comparison: Let's assume that the doomsayers are correct and your overall DPS has been crippled. Even if it has been cut by a full third, it is still higher than Power Reaper. Second, none of the above is touching on the fact that all these builds that have higher DPS than Power Reaper also bring additional utility to the group, be it in the form of group DPS, Combo Finishers, or active defensive buffs. The Reaper brings next to none of this.
2: How Survivable is the Necromancer?
One thing one hears a lot whenever necromancer balance comes up on the subreddit is that the necromancer is extremely survivable relative to the other classes, and thus by rights should have relatively low DPS. There are two approaches I want to take to examining this claim.
First, it seems fitting to compare Necromancer to Warrior, as these are the only two classes in the camp of "most HP gained per Vitality." I will assume full glass build in either case. I will also assume that the Reaper is specced into Soul Reaping. I will normalize HP such that our warrior has 1000 life. If this is the case, the Reaper has 1794 life, 794 of it Life Force. However, as long as you are in shroud, this decreases over time, at 31.75 LF per second. Assuming you are in shroud for 2-4 seconds per encounter, and begin the encounter at full LF, you have on the high-end the equivalent of 1690 life total. This is not the full story, however, as the Warrior uses heavy armor to the Necro's light. This leads to the Necromancer taking more damage. In the end, my totals are such that, not accounting for conditions, and assuming no active defenses are used, the Reaper has at most 30% more effective HP than the Warrior.
So yes, the Necromancer is, passively speaking, more survivable than the Warrior. However, this gets into some interesting further points. First, these numbers do not take conditions into account. Once we start adding in Condi damage, the Necromancer pulls further ahead, to a limit of about 70% higher EHP assuming all damage is done via conditions.
There is also the question of how damage comes in while one is actually playing the game, as this will change how we examine survivability. Certain styles of damage favor passive defenses, while others favor active. For example, against very fast burst damage, a half-second of invulnerability could account for tens of thousands of effective HP, far more than enough to overcome the passive resistances of any build. Now, I cannot really speak for SPvP, as I have not played the game mode. From what I have watched of it, however, the Reaper seems to have good survivability, as player damage tends towards sustained DPS, whereas it will suffer against burst builds. But such is the way of balance. I cannot really speak for the state of balance in PvP at all. Comments from those more experienced are especially welcome here.
What's more interesting to my mind is PvE content. I can attest, the Reaper is quite survivable running around in the open world. However, to say that that makes up for its substantially lowered DPS seems problematic. This is a game where, I expect, you can successfully run around the open world with a Pistol/Pistol Thief in full Magi's gear. Sure you'll be slow, but for the most part you won't find yourself especially challenged. The Open World is not sufficiently challenging to make "more survivable in Open World" a defining, or even redeeming, feature of a class. Maybe if the open world had not been nerfed from HoT Beta 1 I could see it, but as it stands I just don't buy it. Which leads us to what can broadly be described as "Challenge Content." This is stuff like World Bosses, Raids, Fractal Bosses, challenging packs, and the like. In this content, it is at least my experience that damage tends to come in telegraphed packets of huge burst, usually more than enough to down characters. In content like this, the increased EHP of shroud will not help you much, unless you are building specifically for survivability and dropping your DPS through the floor. This content punishes the EHP style of defense and rewards Active Defense, for example skills that cause damage resistance or invulnerability, dodge abilities, blinks, et cetera. More frequent dodging via vigor may also be included here depending on the frequency of attacks. Reaper has no vigor generation, no blinks, no invulnerability, a single low-control dash, and two spells that give damage reduction. Against this style of damage, Reaper is in the running for lowest survivability.
I want to reiterate, I can't speak for PvP here. It's entirely possible that Reaper is balanced, or even OP, in that scene. However, given that skill splitting is a thing now, the fact that Necro's survivability is not significantly higher than other comparable classes in relevant PvE content makes me think the argument this section started with does not hold water.
3: How is the Game Being Balanced?
Now we come to what prompted this unbelievably long post in the first place. I will direct your attention to the following passage from today's patch notes:

One of the biggest changes for necromancers in this patch is the change to the Vital Persistence trait. Previously, this trait reduced the rate at which life force decayed while in shroud and was too powerful compared to the other two traits in the same tier. We’ve changed the functionality of this trait in order to provide a different option that is easier to track and is more competitive with other traits in the same tier. (emphasis mine)

Since 2012 there has been a pattern I have noticed in balancing. There have been deviations from it, but by and large the trend has remained the same. Suppose there are three traits, A, B, and C that compete for the same slot. Everyone takes trait A. When the necromancer is being balanced, this generally leads to A being nerfed to be more in line with B and C. On most other classes, B and C are typically buffed to be in line with A, or A is moved somewhere else. So while Necro pretty much universally receives nerfs, most other classes typically receive buffs, and receive nerfs only when their actual performance is beyond what was intended. My assumption is that there are just multiple balance teams working on the various classes.
Frankly, this needs to change. While neither of these methods is entirely wrong, they cannot both exist in a single game long-term. Given that Necromancer is so far behind the other classes, I would love to see things start with a significant across-the-board buff to the Necromancer and Reaper's Power Damage output. As noted above, such an increase could be as high as 25% and Power Reaper would still safely not meaningfully compete with other DPS specs.
4: The Constructive Bit
While I could go on for a while about various problems with the Necromancer, the above, I think, captures what is most wrong with the state of the class right now and answers the major objections raised against a significant buff. I would love to hear comments on peoples' thoughts on the accuracy and significance of the above, particularly from developers. However, I said going in that I wanted to make this a place for constructive criticism, so I would like to put forward the changes that I personally would like to see. You may or may not agree with them, but in either case I would love to hear why.
Path 1
One method of balancing would be to not nerf Deathly Chill but to change it, causing the application of chill to deal instantaneous damage that scales with power. As I said, I do not really know anything about PvP, so I can't really comment here on exact numbers for such a sweeping change, however, I would offhand suggest that on a full Power gear-set each application deal damage equal to 1.5 10-second stacks of bleeding on a full condi-damage gear-set, with the ability to crit. This would essentially keep Condi Reaper in-place, but power-based, excluding damage from the scepter and Dhuumfire. This could be followed up with weapon tweaks similar to but less extreme than Path 2's.
Path 2
This assumes that Deathly Chill will be either nerfed to death or entirely removed. If this is the case, I would suggest significant reworks to weapons along with a significant buff to Shroud skills. This latter would have the added benefit of encouraging shroud-camping, which would further decrease the Necromancer's Effective HP.
There are two main problems with the weapons on Necromancer at present. First, most do not have distinct competitive identities. Second, most have abysmally low damage. I would suggest the following roles and changes. All non-mechanial changes PvE Only:

• Greatsword: Melee Power DPS. Increase all damage output of pure-power skills by 15-25%
• Dagger: Life Force Generation. I am unsure of changes.
• Axe: Ranged Power DPS. All hits deal damage around the target to 2-4 others. Increase power-damage output of all skills by 20%
• Staff: Ranged Utility. Perhaps mechanical changes to Marks
• Scepter: Ranged Condi DPS. Few to no changes.
• Shroud Skills: Increase all Power damage by 35-50% (this last note is on the basis of Brazil's claim that, for a power build, Reaper Shroud damage is not sufficiently high enough to warrant switching into for DPS)

Best regards all! I look forward to what I hope is a good discussion.

EDIT: Holy crap, first gold! Thank you very much kind stranger!

[A6opureH]

Сообщение от Брэго:

я думаю просто есть утырки, которые ноют и есть утырки которым все ок а когда 100 игроков стримеров по классу включая теори крафтеров создают 10 тем включая реддит и они в топе значит прав скорее я

это ты к нему примазываешься что ли? Есть один утырок на гохе, что пишет о том, что "некр убит", а нормальный человек на реддите стену текста о том, что патч не решил старых проблем некра и не оправдал ожиданий. Вся эта стена текста касается большей частью пве (мало дпса павер некр выдает - лейтмотив его послания ). Ну так вот с точки зрения этого самого пве, патч ничего не изменил у некра (отсюда и недовольство автора той стены текста последним патчем в частности). Как все было, так и осталось, потому то, что некра этим патчем "убили" может только какой-нибудь утырок написать. Все, что общего между утырком и нормальным человеком, это то, что они оба про некра что-то написали.
Я бы еще понял, если бы речь об эле шла, где пофиксили его мультихит одним скилом по большим хитбоксам. Вот это знатно пошатнет его позиции в ПВЕ.

[Quali]

Да на самом деле главное изменение патча: очень сильный нерф конди еды, былды придется переделывать и это скажется на многих классах.
Но много и бустов... В том числе, есть гипотеза, что нынче топ дд станет конди вар, либо пов гвард...

[Дитрум]

Сообщение от A6opureH:

99 процентов игроков на форумах всегда недовольны патчем

Вот тут согласен на все 100. В какие бы я ММОРПГ не играл, новый патч ВСЕГДА=вайн на форумах, причем количество недовольных всегда больше чем тех, кому или все равно или кто доволен патчем)

[TheExile_renamed_985416_23062021]

Ну, так и баланса или его подобия не было ещё ни в одной ММОРПГ или любой другой игре, где этот самый баланс нужен. Так что..Не из воздуха эти возмущения берутся.

[Kageris_renamed_1244862_31122020]

некр был мертв всегда и это продолдается и отсутствие надежды на изменения подтверждены в этом патче. тупо реролл и блять комента слабее не описывает его ситуацию он в два три раза слабее

[Дитрум]

Сообщение от Kageris:

некр был мертв всегда и это продолдается и отсутствие надежды на изменения подтверждены в этом патче. тупо реролл и блять комента слабее не описывает его ситуацию он в два три раза слабее

Еще с бета-версии игры появился хороший обычай. Нерфят некра - снимаем шмотки и одеваем на элема, нерфят элема - снимаем шмот и одеваем на некра)

[A6opureH]

а тут и некр был в рейдах не торт, и нерф эля. Щито делать?

[Quali]

Сообщение от A6opureH:

а тут и некр был в рейдах не торт

ну не совсем же по дпсу при правильной ротации (которую сложно соблюдать) он выдавал почти как рейнжер, совсем немного меньше тифа/элема/инжа...

Хотя я затрудняюсь предположить как это изменится сейчас... разве что в Afflicted его переодевать...

[Coldb_renamed_1099286_25122021]

играть месмером.

[Дитрум]

Сообщение от A6opureH:

а тут и некр был в рейдах не торт, и нерф эля. Щито делать?

Вот сейчас было уже больно! Не, ну тут есть беспроигрышный вариант - гвард) Вот правда у меня нет тяжелого красного asc шмота(
А без него правильные пацаны никуда не возьмут) а пока я прокачаю профу и скрафчу его - понерфят гварда:)

[Брэго]

когда я играл были ревананты, месмеры инжи друиды и вары в рейдах, какие блин гварды элемы, вы о чем

[Дитрум]

Сообщение от Брэго:

гварды элемы

руки прочь от святого!

[Bersiwald_renamed_596767_04022021]

Я, например, не могу выбрать мейна. Начал почти месяц назад за вора и какое-то время он был единственным персонажем. Но теперь каждый день думаю, верный ли сделал выбор? Цели - всё (кроме рейдов), с упором на соло игру в открытом мире. Книжек хватает на прокачку ещё одного персонажа до 80 и ещё одного 80 мне дадут за предзаказ PoF.

[Damiens Castiel_renamed_1046077_08012024]

Сообщение от Bersiwald:

Я, например, не могу выбрать мейна. Начал почти месяц назад за вора и какое-то время он был единственным персонажем. Но теперь каждый день думаю, верный ли сделал выбор?

Эммм, ты в гв2 играешь. Не, есть конечно предпочтения, но прокачать много классов и играть на ком захочешь, именно про это же гв2.

[Брэго]

Сообщение от Bersiwald:

Я, например, не могу выбрать мейна. Начал почти месяц назад за вора и какое-то время он был единственным персонажем. Но теперь каждый день думаю, верный ли сделал выбор? Цели - всё (кроме рейдов), с упором на соло игру в открытом мире. Книжек хватает на прокачку ещё одного персонажа до 80 и ещё одного 80 мне дадут за предзаказ PoF.

соло игра в пве, вор? Ты наркоман?

[Bersiwald_renamed_596767_04022021]

Сообщение от Брэго:

соло игра в пве, вор? Ты наркоман?

Держи себя в руках.

Сообщение от Damiens Castiel:

Эммм, ты в гв2 играешь. Не, есть конечно предпочтения, но прокачать много классов и играть на ком захочешь, именно про это же гв2.

Конечно, со временем все 9 классов прокачаю.

[Брэго]

1 день адового ноя и еще одно доказательства того что я прав, а все отписавшие нет

хотфикс

Necromancer
Death Shroud: The base drain of life force from being in death shroud has been reduced 25%.
Reaper Shroud: The base drain of life force from being in reaper shroud has been reduced 25%.

Добавлено через 6 минут

Сообщение от Bersiwald:

Держи себя в руках.

даже не хочу спрашивать как тщательно ты подбирал класс ибо выбрал самый убогий класс для опен ворлд ПвЕ, который мало того что дохнит от любой тычки (особенно в ХоТе) так и все стори соло чаленджы им просто невозможно сделать если не иметь 2-3 комплекта и все вещи на все случаи жизни.

[Bersiwald_renamed_596767_04022021]

Сообщение от Брэго:

самый убогий класс для опен ворлд ПвЕ

Многие опытные игроки говорят обратное. Как думаешь, кому я поверю? Никому. Я просто сам вижу, что у вора всё в порядке в соло игре, но всегда стремлюсь к поиску идеала.